Women -- then and now

Students of Pirkei Avot today are often faced with the challenge of explaining—or explaining away—Yose ben Yohanan Ish Yerushalayim’s teaching at Avot 1:5. Is it a massive slap in the face for women, or is it merely misunderstood? The third part of this mishnah reads:

וְאַל תַּרְבֶּה שִׂיחָה עִם הָאִשָּׁה, בְּאִשְׁתּוֹ אָמְרוּ, קַל וָחֹֽמֶר בְּאֵֽשֶׁת חֲבֵרוֹ… מִכַּאן אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים: כָּל הַמַּרְבֶּה שִׂיחָה עִם הָאִשָּׁה, גּוֹרֵם רָעָה לְעַצְמוֹ, .וּבוֹטֵל מִדִּבְרֵי תוֹרָה, וְסוֹפוֹ יוֹרֵשׁ גֵּיהִנֹּם

…and do not engage in excessive conversation with a woman. They said this regarding one's own wife—how much more so regarding the wife of one’s friend. The sages therefore said: one who excessively converses with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects Torah and ultimately inherits Gehinnom.

The earliest explanations of this guidance are clear: for men in the world of Torah learning, women are a problem. Avot deRabbi Natan (7:3) warns against coming home from the house of study with complaints that he has not been treated with respect or that he has had a dispute with his chavruta, his study partner: by doing so he merely debases himself and others. His wife, thinking less of him, will share their private conversation with others. This view of the mishnah is adopted by the commentary attributed to Rashi, who adds da’atan shel nashim kalah (“women’s understanding is small”) and spells out that conversing with the wife of one’s friend is problematic because of hachashad (“the suspicion”), without feeling the need to spell out its parameters.

The Bartenura rejects the theory that excessive conversation with one’s wife is only limited to times when she is niddah and not sexually available to him. Instead, he focuses on chit-chat between husband and wife, for which one is accountable when facing judgement. He then offers a wider version of the explanation of Avot deRabbi Natan, applying it not just the husband who returns from the study house but to wherever he may have come home from.

Rambam regards this teaching as revolving around talk of sex, since that is the content of most conversation between men and women. Rabbenu Yonah is more concerned here with thoughts of sex, though he too cites the Avot deRabbi Natan and Rashi. He adds that it is impossible to have Torah thoughts when conversing with a woman and that, if one’s yetzer hara is getting the better of him, chatting with a woman is a good way to establish a time and place for improper conduct.

Contemporary writers on Avot take quite a different approach. Indeed, R’ Dan Roth (Relevance: Pirkei Avos for the Twenty-First Century, 2007) passes over this mishnah completely.

For R’ Abraham J. Twerski (Visions of the Fathers, 1999) the task of the husband is to avoid what he calls “excessive” talk. This is a broad category of speech that includes all talk that is unnecessary, unproductive or damaging, with nothing to justify it. This category includes complaints or criticisms of one’s wife where the subject of the complaint is in the past and cannot be rectified,

R’ Yisroel Miller (The Wisdom of Avos, 2022) meets the mishnah head-on, going right back to the Avot deRabbi Natan, concluding that “the mishnah is warning against conversing excessively with one’s own wife because it may cause her to lose respect for him”. R’ Miller then uses it as a springboard for a wider message—one that is not based on the original words at all: “conversation between men and women is difficult because men and women use words and process information in very different ways”. Given the possibility of sexual attraction between man and woman, “every conversation between men and women is a minefield waiting to explode”.

R' Anthony Manning (Poliakoff and Manning, Reclaiming Dignity, 2023) quotes the teaching of Yose ben Yochanan but does not subject it to close textual analysis. Rather, he explains in general terms that: “The Rabbis warned about certain modes of social interaction that can lead us into dangerous situations. Idle banter between men and women in certain settings can become sexually suggestive, opening up possibilities for seductions and potentially destructive relationships”.  To be fair, this is not a pirush on Avot, so it would be unfair to expect anything further on this mishnah.

Another recent publication, this time by Gila Ross (Living Beautifully, 2023), is based on Avot but focuses more on the aspirational side of the tractate, more on what sort of life we should aim to live rather on what the words of the Tannaim mean. She writes: “Of course, any talk that is necessary, including anything that creates an emotional bond between a husband and a wife, is not only permitted but encouraged”. She continues: “More specifically, not conversing excessively with a woman is a reminder to us that life is precious and limited. We are souls, and we are here for a higher purpose…” , Citing R’ Shimshon Raphael Hirsch, she adds:”[A] husband who has respect for his wife won’t just give her idle chatter but will engage in meaningful talk”.

Not all modern pirushim stray from the blunt message of the classic commentators. R’ Yaakov Hillel (Eternal Ethics From Sinai, vol.1, 2021) does not mince his words. While his discussion of male-female relationships may be far from contemporary social norms, he maintains a hard line that the Tannaim would likely have recognized, cautioning against spiritual decline and the sin of wasting semen. His strict approach would however commend itself to many a wife whose husband, “in learning”, is struggling with a meagre income and a large family. He writes: “When a woman needs her husband’s encouragement or help, it is a mitzvah to provide it”. After mentioning the special needs of such wives he adds: “Everyone is different. It takes a great deal of wisdom to correctly gauge and meet another party’s needs, yet not err in the opposite direction. A husband’s obligations to his wife as outlined in the marriage contract are based on her feelings, which may not necessarily be identical to his”.

In sum, modern writings on Avot reflect in general a drift away from the strict, somewhat austere and sometimes patronizing position of the classical commentators—but they do affirm, both in positive and negative terms, the principles upon which this mishnah is founded.